Possible Shitstorm

[Trey]

In case no one saw

 Rocket and AP say that Grimsley is full of it

 

Quote:
Also Sunday, Clemens and Pettitte defended themselves in separate interviews.

"I just think it's incredibly dangerous to sit out there and just throw names out there," Clemens said Sunday before the Astros played in Atlanta. "I haven't seen [the report], nor do I need to see it."

"I've been tested plenty of times," he added. "My physicals I've taken, they have taken my blood work. I have passed every test. Again, I just find it amazing that you can throw anybody out there."

Pettitte was "stunned" by the report.

"I played with Grimsley for a couple of years in New York and had a great relationship with him," the pitcher said before the Astros' game.

"I guess reports are saying I've used performance enhancing drugs," he added. "I've never used any drugs to enhance my performance in baseball. I don't know what else to say except to say it's embarrassing my name would be out there."

 

[Limey]

Quote:
Andro.

Androstyene, to be exact or something similar to that... by the way, Jeff Bagwell used Andro as well... you could get it over the counter at a health and nutrition store at one time.  It was not illegal back then, it is now.

There's a theory that McTweet planted the Andro prominently in his locker so that it would be found and be his alibi for what he was really using.

[Limey]

Quote:

In case no one saw

 Rocket and AP say that Grimsley is full of it

 

Quote:
Also Sunday, Clemens and Pettitte defended themselves in separate interviews.

"I just think it's incredibly dangerous to sit out there and just throw names out there," Clemens said Sunday before the Astros played in Atlanta. "I haven't seen [the report], nor do I need to see it."

"I've been tested plenty of times," he added. "My physicals I've taken, they have taken my blood work. I have passed every test. Again, I just find it amazing that you can throw anybody out there."

Pettitte was "stunned" by the report.

"I played with Grimsley for a couple of years in New York and had a great relationship with him," the pitcher said before the Astros' game.

"I guess reports are saying I've used performance enhancing drugs," he added. "I've never used any drugs to enhance my performance in baseball. I don't know what else to say except to say it's embarrassing my name would be out there."

 

 

Glad to hear that he's been blood tested.  There's no pee test for HGH, so this adds some credence to his protestations.  However, the Racket and AP have trained together for years, so I'm sure that if one was on something, then both were.

[Bench]

Quote:

Quote:

In case no one saw

 Rocket and AP say that Grimsley is full of it

 

Quote:
Also Sunday, Clemens and Pettitte defended themselves in separate interviews.

"I just think it's incredibly dangerous to sit out there and just throw names out there," Clemens said Sunday before the Astros played in Atlanta. "I haven't seen [the report], nor do I need to see it."

"I've been tested plenty of times," he added. "My physicals I've taken, they have taken my blood work. I have passed every test. Again, I just find it amazing that you can throw anybody out there."

Pettitte was "stunned" by the report.

"I played with Grimsley for a couple of years in New York and had a great relationship with him," the pitcher said before the Astros' game.

"I guess reports are saying I've used performance enhancing drugs," he added. "I've never used any drugs to enhance my performance in baseball. I don't know what else to say except to say it's embarrassing my name would be out there."

 

 

Glad to hear that he's been blood tested.  There's no pee test for HGH, so this adds some credence to his protestations.  However, the Racket and AP have trained together for years, so I'm sure that if one was on something, then both were.

I thought there was no test for HGH at all, but the scientists say blood testing would be the likeliest place in the future, and thus there is a movement to store blood samples of people know for future testing once that becomes possible.

[S.P. Rodriguez]

Quote:
no doubt in my mind that Clemens took something. his body changed too much. i'll be shocked if AP did.

greenies are different banned substances. they were rampant at one time, and i'll bet that many, many more did than didn't.

Jim, curious about your thoughts on Clemens and his chances at the HOF.  I recall from previous discussions that you don't agree that Bonds' association with illegal/banned performance enhancers should prevent his election to the HOF.  Does that apply to Clemens, assuming the allegations continue but are never substantiated?  

In regards to Bonds, I doubt he will ever be caught or admit anything but the court of public opinion has tried and convicted the man. Whether he makes it into the HOF, only time will tell.

[Bench]

Quote:

Quote:
no doubt in my mind that Clemens took something. his body changed too much. i'll be shocked if AP did.

greenies are different banned substances. they were rampant at one time, and i'll bet that many, many more did than didn't.

Jim, curious about your thoughts on Clemens and his chances at the HOF.  I recall from previous discussions that you don't agree that Bonds' association with illegal/banned performance enhancers should prevent his election to the HOF.  Does that apply to Clemens, assuming the allegations continue but are never substantiated?  

In regards to Bonds, I doubt he will ever be caught or admit anything but the court of public opinion has tried and convicted the man. Whether he makes it into the HOF, only time will tell.

I'm not Jim, but I can't fathom either not being first ballot hall of famers. Short of actual evidence/confession, any sportswriter who doesn't vote both in on the first go (it should obviously be unanimous) needs to have their voters registration revoked. Any writer who pulls the "I won't vote for him on the first ballot to teach him a lesson but then I'll vote for him the second time" needs a swift kick in the rump after having said voting privileges revoked.

[Limey]

Quote:
I thought there was no test for HGH at all, but the scientists say blood testing would be the likeliest place in the future, and thus there is a movement to store blood samples of people know for future testing once that becomes possible.

A blood test exists, and has been around since at least 2004.

Edit to add:  "HGH, which also occurs naturally in the body, is misused by competitors to stimulate muscle and tissue growth. Adverse effects include heart disease, high levels of fat, and disfigurement."

Wickman?

[Lefty]

Quote:
Adverse effects include heart disease, high levels of fat, and disfigurement."

Wickman?

San Antonio?

[Savage]

FWIW, the prosecutor in the Grimsely matter has come out to characterize the LAT story as containting "significant inaccuracies".   Link

[pravata]

the Grimsley affidavit, The Link

[MusicMan]

OK, this is real easy.  What redactions occur, and could they be filled in with Clemens' and/or Pettitte's names?

p.4 - "Grimsley stated that [redacted] told him about the positive test".
NO- players would not have access to this.

p.5 - "When asked what other current of (sic) former Major League Baseball players used athletic performance-enhancing drugs Grimsley named former players [redacted] and [redacted]"
NO- they are not former players.

p.6 - "Grimsley stated that this past winter, [redacted] told him..."; same redaction appears three further times in this paragraph.
NO- these refer to one of the previously named players.

p.6 - "...other Major League Baseball players who took anabolic steroids.  Grimsely named, [redact],[redact](whom he stated was [redact]), [redact] (whom Grimsley stated was very obvious and had the worst back acne he'd ever seen, and [redact] as anabolic steroid users."
Maybe- however, the Times went to pains to identify Tejada, Gibbons, and Roberts as "steroid users", while RC/AP were "performance enhancing drugs".  If you assume the Oriole names to be correct, and add David Segui, who has admitted he was in the affadavit, you have your four redacted names.

p.7 - "Grimsley stated that while a teammate of [redacted] last season with the [redacted][redacted] talked openly about his ([redacted]) use of amphetamines."
NO- RC and AP were not teammates of Grimsley in 2005.  This clearly refers to an Oriole.

p.7 - "Grimsley stated that [redacted], a former employee of the [redacted] and personal fitness trainer to severall MLB players, once referred him to an amphetamine source... he (Grimsely) secured amphetamines, anabolic steroids, and HGH from [redacted] referred source."
This is the spot of the trainer's name, clearly.

p.8 - "Grimsley also identified [redacted], a former MLB player, as one of his better friends in baseball.  Grimsley stated that knows [redacted] used HGH and knows that [redacted] obtained the HGH..."
NO- again, neither RC nor AP are former players.

Conclusion: The Times is likely full of shit.

[LonghornCDR]

Nice job with that analysis.  

Now why couldn't a reporter, who's ostensibly committed to reporting facts, do a similar analysis and come to the same logical conclusions?

Hmmmmm.

[Juli]

FWIW - I have some doubts about this search warrant being legit.  Search warrants and the affidavits are discoverable by the defense.  Normally, they are carried to the place that is to be searched to be presented if challenged by an occupant and/or their attorney.  Search warrants only need to present the probable cause for the search and may be drawn to be narrow or broader in scope, but no facts are necessary beyond probable cause for the search of the target.  In this case, as I understand it, the target is the residence of Grimsley.  There's no reason to include all of that stuff about other ballplayers, unless they are seeking proof of those other ballplayers' participation.  According to all of that extraneous stuff, Grimsley was happy to throw people under a bus, so providing evidence wouldn't have bothered him too much, no need for a search warrant.  Also, because that stuff doesn't seem rationally connected to the target search, including that kind of information while knowing the affidavit would have to be disclosed could/would jeopardize other investigations.  Of course there's no way for me to know for sure, but this smells to me.

[Bench]

the "better friend" in baseball and the person who referred him to a doctor has already been disclosed. I believe it was David Segui. He hit the airwaves just after Grimsley got arrested. Segui had been prescribed HGH for some legitamate medical condition.

[Phil_in_CS]

Quote:
Nice job with that analysis.  

Now why couldn't a reporter, who's ostensibly committed to reporting facts, do a similar analysis and come to the same logical conclusions?

uh, they aren't as smart as MM?

[pravata]

Quote:

Quote:
Nice job with that analysis.  

Now why couldn't a reporter, who's ostensibly committed to reporting facts, do a similar analysis and come to the same logical conclusions?

uh, they aren't as smart as MM?

Very likely.  However some reporters are getting the picture, or maybe they're just minimally competent at their job,

Grimsley did not name Clemens, others Former D-Backs pitcher's attorney refutes steroids report

Joseph A. Reaves The Arizona Republic Oct. 2, 2006

Former Diamondbacks pitcher Jason Grimsley told federal agents questioning him about illicit drugs in baseball last spring that ?never in a million years? would star pitchers Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte use steroids, human growth hormone or any other illegal performance enhancers, Grimsley's attorney said Monday.

?Jason told them (the federal agents) he had no knowledge of Clemens and Pettitte using any illegal drugs and told them that never in a million years would either of them use,? attorney Ed Novak told The Arizona Republic.

Novak said the agents, not Grimsley, brought up Clemens and Pettitte and that recent published reports were incorrect...

SF Mercury News
The U.S. Attorney's office in San Francisco said Monday that a blockbuster Los Angeles Times story naming five players, including Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte, in the infamous Grimsley affidavit contained "significant inaccuracies."
U.S. Attorney Kevin Ryan, who has prosecuted the BALCO defendants and is seeking testimony from two San Francisco Chronicle reporters with the threat of prison, said through a spokesman that "the names" in the story were incorrect, but refused to elaborate.
Ryan also declined to say whether all of the names were wrong.
"We're very limited in what we can say by law," spokesman Luke Macauley said.
The Link

The simple among us may take the point of view, for the sake of argument, (many, many arguments and possible  some TV appearances) "We might never know the truth about what Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte did or didn't use. In the end, it's that simple." (Pinwheel, Chron 10/3/07) However, it appears more and more likely that, oh yes, we will know the truth.  They didn't.  And if people keep saying they did, Clemens is likely to sue their ass.

[strosrays]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
no doubt in my mind that Clemens took something. his body changed too much. i'll be shocked if AP did.

greenies are different banned substances. they were rampant at one time, and i'll bet that many, many more did than didn't.

Jim, curious about your thoughts on Clemens and his chances at the HOF.  I recall from previous discussions that you don't agree that Bonds' association with illegal/banned performance enhancers should prevent his election to the HOF.  Does that apply to Clemens, assuming the allegations continue but are never substantiated?  

In regards to Bonds, I doubt he will ever be caught or admit anything but the court of public opinion has tried and convicted the man. Whether he makes it into the HOF, only time will tell.

I'm not Jim, but I can't fathom either not being first ballot hall of famers. Short of actual evidence/confession, any sportswriter who doesn't vote both in on the first go (it should obviously be unanimous) needs to have their voters registration revoked. Any writer who pulls the "I won't vote for him on the first ballot to teach him a lesson but then I'll vote for him the second time" needs a swift kick in the rump after having said voting privileges revoked.

Both were HOF worthy before there was any reasonable or unreasonable reason to guess chemicals were involved.  If a writer is trying to say Bonds put up HOF with the aid of steroids, but wouldn't have without them, I'm calling bullshit.  If a writer is trying to say he won't vote Bonds first ballot for some obscure moral reasons, I'm saying 1.) a sportswriter is maybe the last person I'd look to for moral guidance; and 2.) who ever said the HOF selection process had anything to do with someone's ambiguous idea of what is (and is not) moral.  Needless to say, there are a lot of former players in the HOF already who make Bonds look like a peach of a guy.

Now Sammy Sosa, that's another story.  His ascension as a power hitter almost directly coincides with what is acknowledged as the rise to prominence the use of steroids in baseball.  People used to give Dubya shit for being "the owner who traded away Sammy Sosa" (for Harold Baines, basically), but in Bush's defense - bear with me here - at the time Sosa was a young guy who hadn't established himself in the league, was a poor fielder who swung at everything but only hit anything occasionally.  And of course the White Sox traded him a few years later (for George Bell) to the Puppies.

So Sosa was traded for A.) an aging DH, and B.) an aging former AL power-hitter who was clinically insane.  It was after all that when Slammy the Clown was born.  And he died as soon as the crackdown came.

Still, it's only anecdotal evidence, and I know I shouldn't be ready to believe the worst about Sosa without the goods on him.  But there are some guys who are going to look at the 580-some homeruns and say, "Jeez, no way I can't vote for a guy with almost 600 dingers."  Hell, maybe they are right; but Sosa would bother me a whole lot more than Bonds would.