Gammons: Bagwell deserves Hall of Fame call

[Arky Vaughan]

So much for "taking his ballot seriously."  He notes that Bagwell is similar to Steve Garvey, who didn't come within sniffing distance of the HOF.  So go all  the way back... two posts previously... in his own blog:

http://barrybloom.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/11/garv-boss-my-picks-on-new-hall-of-fame-ballot.html

He's not just ignorant.  He's a hypocrite.

It's doubtful whether a group of commenters from Pinwheel's blog would be significantly less qualified to elect players to the Hall of Fame than the BBWAA 10-year members are. Bloom certainly wouldn't distinguish himself in a crowd of those yokels.

[VirtualBob]

I would put out the effort to follow her if that were the case.  I turst you will inform me when that does occur...

It would have to be scrawled somewhere else to make following her do any good.

[VirtualBob]

Cammy is a given.  Grimsley what, a spring training with Hou. Clemens and Pettitte were nailed more for their pre-HOU days.  Tejada? Also from pre-Houston days.  Plus, none of these guys, sans Cammy, were playing with him during his monster years (the ones to which these comments would seem to be "relevant" to).  What, are folks throwing in a veiled Luis Gonzales reference here?

The sarc alert level was raised to red ... you must have missed that.

[OregonStrosFan]

The sarc alert level was raised to red ... you must have missed that.

I'm in 'pissed off at the world (or 'journalists') mode now.  Completely blew passed it.  My apologies AV!

[Reuben]

Well, Ken Caminiti played for the Astros, and so did Miguel Tejada, Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte. Jason Grimsley was in the organization. So there you go.

Right, forget the A's and the Giants and BALCO. 'Roid Central was right in the teeny little state of Texas, boys!

[austro]

Right, forget the A's and the Giants and BALCO. 'Roid Central was right in the teeny little state of Texas, boys!

Of course it was. That gives the coasters another reason to marginalize and ignore it.

[subnuclear]

Cammy is a given. 

Just as a side note, Cammie said he started taking steroids in 1996, after he was traded to SD.  Not sure if he said anything about when he came back (and didn't play very much).

[MusicMan]

Just as a side note, Cammie said he started taking steroids in 1996, after he was traded to SD.  Not sure if he said anything about when he came back (and didn't play very much).

You are dealing with facts.  Facts are irrelevant to the discussion.

[Arky Vaughan]

Right, forget the A's and the Giants and BALCO. 'Roid Central was right in the teeny little state of Texas, boys!

Which team did Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Jason Giambi, Alex Rodriguez, Jose Canseco, Jason Grimsley and Chuck Knoblauch all play for?

This must mean Derek Jeter used steroids, hot bed logic and all.

[Ebby Calvin]

At least Shaune weighed in on the matter

This really is a fascinating discovery.  Her previous tweet:

The mood is unadulterated-unembellished-glamour. The accessories gleam platinum, like starlight on chrome.

I don't know what she's talking about, but I want to know more, dammit.

[Ty in Tampa]

This really is a fascinating discovery.  Her previous tweet:

I don't know what she's talking about, but I want to know more, dammit.

Did she really use up 10 syllables on just 2 words? Amazing!

[Limey]

You are dealing with facts.  Facts are irrelevant to the discussion.

Wrong!  Facts are relevant.

You extract your opinion from your rectum, then find facts to support your anus.

[Houston]

It's as if the last 30 years of proliferation in the understanding of baseball statistics totally whizzed past Bloom. Of course, as my learned friend Noe would note, you don't have to look at a single statistic to understand that Garvey and Bagwell aren't comparable types of players. I wouldn't be surprised if Bloom hadn't even heard of Bagwell until the ballot arrived in his mailbox.

What do you mean they aren't comparable? Facts -- both men, both white, both big forearms, both right-handed, and both American. What more do you need?

[Noe in Austin]

So much for "taking his ballot seriously."  He notes that Bagwell is similar to Steve Garvey, who didn't come within sniffing distance of the HOF.  So go all  the way back... two posts previously... in his own blog:

http://barrybloom.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/11/garv-boss-my-picks-on-new-hall-of-fame-ballot.html

He's not just ignorant.  He's a hypocrite.

The Grav?  Not just ignorant and a hyprocrite, but just downright stoopid too!  Moran!

[Limey]

What do you mean they aren't comparable? Facts -- both men, both white, both big forearms, both right-handed, and both American. What more do you need?

Bagwell's birth certificate?

[Noe in Austin]

Just as a side note, Cammie said he started taking steroids in 1996, after he was traded to SD.  Not sure if he said anything about when he came back (and didn't play very much).

John J. Moore, owner, San Diego Padres... from Houston where he made his millions.  Basically... hotbed!  Moores must be a supplier then.

[Arky Vaughan]

Sarcasm aside, the circumstantial evidence that Jeff Bagwell used PEDs appears to be as follows: Bagwell (1) had a muscular physique (2) playing in the PED era (3) putting up big power numbers (4) for a franchise employing admitted or strongly suspected PED users, such as Caminiti, Clemens, Pettitte and Tejada (notwithstanding whether such use is alleged to have occurred while those players were Bagwell's teammates).

How does that same fact pattern not also implicate any number of other players? Indeed, how is that not a dead-on description of Albert Pujols? Pujols is as muscular as anyone. His career has overlapped with the PED era. His numbers are eye-popping. And Mark McGwire, one of the most notorious admitted PED users of all time, played for the same franchise, is a darling of the fans there, and had a close relationship with the same manager who has a close relationship with Pujols. Pujols and McGwire were teammates Pujols' rookie season.

None of this constitutes credible evidence that Pujols used PEDs, any more than the same circumstances prove or strongly suggest that Bagwell used PEDs. Like Bagwell, Pujols has never been publicly reported to have tested positive and has not appeared on the various lists that have identified so many other players as PED users. No one has come forward with reasonably reliable evidence that Pujols or Bagwell used PEDs other than the foregoing circumstantial evidence.

If people want to get on their high horse about Bagwell, then they better saddle up for Pujols as well. Pujols is perhaps the only first baseman standing between Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx on one hand and Bagwell on the other hand in terms of all-time great first basemen. But I doubt Pujols will face the same scrutiny by Hall of Fame voters that Bagwell has unless hard evidence about Pujols surfaces in the next several years.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe both Bagwell and Pujols are clean. Foxx had arms like a gorilla, and we can be pretty sure PEDs were not circulating in the A's and Red Sox clubhouses in the '30s and '40s. Both Bagwell and Pujols deserve a presumption of legitimacy if such circumstantial evidence is all the naysayers have to go on.

[Noe in Austin]

Sarcasm aside, the circumstantial evidence that Jeff Bagwell used PEDs appears to be as follows: Bagwell (1) had a muscular physique (2) playing in the PED era (3) putting up big power numbers (4) for a franchise employing admitted or strongly suspected PED users, such as Caminiti, Clemens, Pettitte and Tejada (notwithstanding whether such use is alleged to have occurred while those players were Bagwell's teammates).

How does that same fact pattern not also implicate any number of other players? Indeed, how is that not a dead-on description of Albert Pujols? Pujols is as muscular as anyone. His career has overlapped with the PED era. His numbers are eye-popping. And Mark McGwire, one of the most notorious admitted PED users of all time, played for the same franchise, is a darling of the fans there, and had a close relationship with the same manager who has a close relationship with Pujols. Pujols and McGwire were teammates Pujols' rookie season.

None of this constitutes credible evidence that Pujols used PEDs, any more than the same circumstances prove or strongly suggest that Bagwell used PEDs. Like Bagwell, Pujols has never been publicly reported to have tested positive and has not appeared on the various lists that have identified so many other players as PED users. No one has come forward with reasonably reliable evidence that Pujols or Bagwell used PEDs other than the foregoing circumstantial evidence.

If people want to get on their high horse about Bagwell, then they better saddle up for Pujols as well. Pujols is perhaps the only first baseman standing between Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx on one hand and Bagwell on the other hand in terms of all-time great first basemen. But I doubt Pujols will face the same scrutiny by Hall of Fame voters that Bagwell has unless hard evidence about Pujols surfaces in the next several years.

You know what, sadly the world we live in does kind of work like that.  Pujols = Dominican.  Dominican ballplayers = liars (age) and well known PED abusers.  Pujols = older than he really is, but not to worry, he takes plenty of stuff to keep him young and vibrant.  You have to wonder why a man struggles with planter facitis or whatever the name of his Achilles boo-boo is.

[Limey]

Sarcasm aside, the circumstantial evidence that Jeff Bagwell used PEDs appears to be as follows:

You omitted his reduction in body mass at the same time as the introduction of more stringent any kind of testing.  That we all know this to be coincidental as well as circumstantial makes no difference.  These fuckers cannot see beyond their own, stilted narrative.

What they are saying is this:  Bagwell = never played for big media market team = scrub who "used" in order to hang on with a small market team.

[JimR]

one other fact: Bagwell's body changed dramatically.