Lidge a Phillie

[Froback]

Another thing to consider about losing Lidge.

You have to trade quality to get quality.  

I think nobody will argue that Lidge is quality (and if they try, they are idiots).  So he was the Astros best chip to trade without really gutting the team in some way, and in return they did get quality.  Bourn might not be Ichiro, but he will be a good lead-off man.  And when people try to compare him to the "average" CFer they need to temper that with, not all CFers have the same function in a line-up.  Beltran was asked to be the best hitter in his line-up.  Torii Hunter was asked to be a run producer, not a run scorer.  Compare Bourn's career stats to lead-off hitters and suddenly his slugging being a bit low isn't as big a deal as his good OBP.  And on top of that Bourn has excellent range in CF, which is HUGE in MMP, as we have all noted.

On top of that, the Astros good a good 3B prospect, and a decent middle reliever and only had to add in Bruntlett whos is a great untility type, but not siginificantly more.  So I have to agree with those that say the Astros got the better end of this deal, but Philly fills a big need to them in a quality closer.

[ckutac]

Bourn might not be Ichiro, but he will be a good lead-off man. 

I would say that Bourn should be viewed as being a Juan Pierre with a good OBP or a Dave Roberts type of player with a few more SB's.

[Gizzmonic]

Well, nobody cares what I think, but I'm excited about this trade.  The Astros get a true center fielder.  They are going to need a lot of pitching help to be a contender this year, but I think they just took one step towards that goal.

[Froback]

They are going to need a lot of pitching help to be a contender this year, but I think they just took one step towards that goal.

They were going to need that, even without this trade.  But they are closer to being back in contention after the trade then before, IMO.

[Noe in Austin]

Another thing to consider about losing Lidge.

You have to trade quality to get quality. 

I think nobody will argue that Lidge is quality (and if they try, they are idiots).  So he was the Astros best chip to trade without really gutting the team in some way, and in return they did get quality.  Bourn might not be Ichiro, but he will be a good lead-off man.  And when people try to compare him to the "average" CFer they need to temper that with, not all CFers have the same function in a line-up.  Beltran was asked to be the best hitter in his line-up.  Torii Hunter was asked to be a run producer, not a run scorer.  Compare Bourn's career stats to lead-off hitters and suddenly his slugging being a bit low isn't as big a deal as his good OBP.  And on top of that Bourn has excellent range in CF, which is HUGE in MMP, as we have all noted.

On top of that, the Astros good a good 3B prospect, and a decent middle reliever and only had to add in Bruntlett whos is a great untility type, but not siginificantly more.  So I have to agree with those that say the Astros got the better end of this deal, but Philly fills a big need to them in a quality closer.

The days of a GM getting the better end of the deal are long gone.  No one really gets the better end when it's a win-win.  You fill your need, they fill their need and you move on and play the games.  If the players do not perform then some will judge a deal (some say give it three years after a deal is done to say who got the better end).  But that is performance based, sort of how the Jason Jennings deal is a big "Incomplete" in terms of judgement because he got hurt.  No one really knows who that deal would've turned out.

But overall, I like this win-win deal because both teams benefit greatly.  As much as I think those prone to find the negatives for Houston and poo-poo this deal (I'm looking at your radio sports talk guy) is just plain silly, trying to ascribe some sort of magical touch to Ed Wade is equally silly.  I was as much a part of promoting the myth of "The Hun", but in reality it's not really true that a GM can be a shark nowadays over another. 

BTW - Felipe Paulino now becomes a very interesting component on this team for the spring training time.  What if this kid breaks out and becomes the new closer?  He has the stuff to be a premier closer, but when do you give him that chance?  Now?

[JimR]

This link is interesting. Phil's seemed quite content with Myers remaining in the closer role and were only looking at Bourne as a part-time OFer, probably not even in CF.  http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071105&content_id=2292609&vkey=news_phi&fext=.jsp&c_id=phi

that is accurate re Bourn in Philly.

[Froback]

I agree with what you are saying Noe.  I think it is a win-win type trade.  And you really can't judge trades properly at any time, because early on you don't know how each player will perform in the future and later on you lose site of the expectations at the time of the trade.

I view the Astros as the winner simply because they addressed more "needs" in this trade than the Phillies... but then they had more significant needs so that SHOULD be expected.

[Noe in Austin]

that is accurate re Bourn in Philly.

They love Victorino and that pretty much meant Bourn was a RF.

[Noe in Austin]

I agree with what you are saying Noe.  I think it is a win-win type trade.  And you really can't judge trades properly at any time, because early on you don't know how each player will perform in the future and later on you lose site of the expectations at the time of the trade.

I view the Astros as the winner simply because they addressed more "needs" in this trade than the Phillies... but then they had more significant needs so that SHOULD be expected.

Excellent! Agreed.

[Froback]

They love Victorino and that pretty much meant Bourn was a RF.

I would love him too, if he continues to perform like he did last year when not hurt.

[JimR]

It's not just stolen bases either...

It's the first to third.

It's the possible triple instead of a stand-up double.

It's the hurried infield throw on ground balls.

Speed kills...

bingo

[Noe in Austin]

I would love him too, if he continues to perform like he did last year when not hurt.

The Flying Hawaiian leaves nothing on the bench for sure.  I'm not entirely sure for the longterm of Victorino, but right now he has earned the starting nod in the outfield for the Phills and the fans love him, so that's a plus.

[strosrays]

I saw Bourn on a cross-country aeroplane
While I howled at Brad Lidge through the driving rain
But its all right now
I'll give Wade a pass
But its all right
It's a nice little trade saving cash, cash, cash

I was raised to not trade closers, that's a drag
I was afraid that the bullpen stats would sag
But its all right now
That fear will pass
But its al right
They'll just plug in someone else who throws gas, gas, gas

I was drowned by the bullshit that I read
By the clowns in the paper, what they said
I frowned at all the nitwits they misled
I fell down and and closed my eyes while my ears bled
But its all right now
Ortiz is an ass
But its all right
They got a centerfielder and he's fast, fast, fast

[GreatBagwellsBeard]

I don't want to be an asshole, but I wonder what all the Phils fans who are currently crowing about their ream having ripped off stupid old Ed Wade will say the first time Lidge surrenders a game-deciding dinger in their bandbox park?  I feel for Lidge as a man, but if you think he's gotten ripped in the media and by fans here, he'll have a much shorter leash there; and if we've learned anything over the past two years, it's that his psyche is his Achilles' heel, not his stuff.   I have no ill will toward Lidge as a person, but this could eat him alive.  For his sake, he should've gone to a small media market where the scrutiny wouldn't have been as intense.

As I've thought some more about Bourn, if he can produce at the plate enough for a OBP somewhere north of .300,  pluss the immense defensive upgrade, that's gotta be worth a win or two in the long run, whether by being on base at the right time, or saving a run from scoring with his quickness. In the Central, 1-2 games could be the difference between the playoffs and golf.

[Arky Vaughan]

There is no point in discussing anything with someone who says "I'm not big on scouting."

Scour your stats sheets and tell us what you would have done.

The stat sheet indicates that in his big-league career, he has had 144 plate appearances leading to 31 runs scored (granted, some of that was probably pinch-running). Extrapolate that rate to 650 plate appearances, and that's 140 runs scored.

The Astros got 100 runs scored out of the leadoff spot in 777 plate appearances last season.

So without even considering Bourn's defense, he's likely to be a significant upgrade leading off.

[Arky Vaughan]

WTF?

"I'm not big on scouting, so I have to go strictly by what I see in the stats, so I don't see what's so big about Bourne."

"Like I said I'm not a stats guy, so I'm not sure how OBP and BA translate.  I know .378 can be termed "pretty good", but I'm fairly clueless as to what's a good difference between OBP and BA."

How can you go strictly by what you see in the stats if by your own admission you don't know what you're looking at?

[MusicMan]

He's not big on scouting, or stats.  He's big on his opinions.

[Arky Vaughan]

I think he's going to be a nice addition, any idea about his arm???  Zero outfield assists is a bit worrisome.

You've got to consider playing time. Bourn's only been out there a total of 340 innings. Torri Hunter has 2.4 assists per 340 innings in his career. Carl Crawford has 1.85. Andruw Jones has 1.8. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that any of them has gone something close to 340 innings without an assist at some point in his career.

I have not idea what his arm is like, but I don't think you can get worried about zero outfield assists for a guy who's fielded less than a quarter-season of innings.

[JimR]

and if we've learned anything over the past two years, it's that his psyche is his Achilles' heel, not his stuff.  

oh, please--that is such bullshit.

[JackAstro]

I love this deal. That's not to say I love Bourn - I've never seen him play, and I don't pretend to have an opinion on him - but this trade sets the defense, batting order, and rest of the offseason up beautifully.

The club needed better baserunning - check.
A real honest-to-God center fielder - check.
A leadoff guy - check (I hope).

And now there's more payroll available, and they don't need their 2B to bat leadoff. Castillo and Loretta are both very good, realistic options that can bat 2nd. This gives them their #5 in Pence. They already had their catcher of the future, and his personal backup/coach. Everett is free to bat 8 and be the best shortstop in the league. Dominos are falling left and right, people... pull out the whiskey and fireworks, let's celebrate this thing.

I know losing Lidge hurts. Trades should hurt a bit. But he was going to be a free agent soon, and it doesn't seem terribly likely that the Astros would have invested "elite closer" money in the position, if we even agree that's what he was. There are numerous guys who are likely good candidates for late-inning relief, and possibly eventual closers. The club could do much much worse than Qualls, if that's what happens, so I'm not too freaked out there. Wade got a guy that he feels comfortable with as a 7th inning reliever. Wade knows more than me, so I'll take his word for it. There's at least reason for guarded optimism for the bullpen (or just a wait and see attitude, if guarded optimism isn't your thing.)

And that's not even considering the 3B prospect and years of club control that the club has to work with. Depending on what happens with 2B and the eventual performance of Bourn, we could be looking at a very long stretch where we don't need to hem and haw about the state of the right half of the IF and the entirety of the OF. That's luxury, gang. Like, fine-Corinthian-leather-grade luxury. Soak in it.